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Cheddar
Vignelli’s map design was considered by design professionals to be “perfect”, but it did not meet the needs of the commuting masses. What are some other examples of things that have been heralded as “perfect” that were actually not as good as the “worse” thing they were replacing?
Comment from : Cheddar


Jorge Pille
So, a good example of "know your audience." Research is important.
Comment from : Jorge Pille


Gordon Richardson
RIP designer Michael Hertz: www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51648746
Comment from : Gordon Richardson


Anthony Ng
Ahh the resilient and flexible Americans
Comment from : Anthony Ng


Wouter Paap
This is very interesting. According to psychiatrist Carl Jung, people can be divided into four types: intuitive, perception, logic and emotional. Western society has been based on logic since the era of the Enlightenment around 1750. I think that it was precisely because of this emphasis on logic in society that there was great surprise by the developers that this map did not appeal to users. As an 'emotional' type, I can only smile at this astonishment and I fully understand how good it feels to see the geographical lines and the curves of the metro lines on the maps.
Comment from : Wouter Paap


black_cat
New york deserved 9/11
Comment from : black_cat


ruzzell907
There's nothing wrong with the map. It's just that it was launched in the wrong time.
Comment from : ruzzell907


Andy A
I live in staten island, and that part where you said that staten island is gone completely, made me sad, jk lolll
Comment from : Andy A


Steve Dunning
And the conclusion was...?
Comment from : Steve Dunning


Orbite flow
Because they could care less.
Comment from : Orbite flow


Hiran Almarales
geographical maps are much better. and if satellite image could be included in the map's layer, even better. simple diagrams style maps may be easy for the eye but depending on the city and the way it was designed. Simple diagram styled maps can be quite inaccurate and prevent the user from reaching his/her destination which is the opposite purpose of a map.
Comment from : Hiran Almarales


AussiCanAnimate
Who else thought it looked like mini metro
Comment from : AussiCanAnimate


MPY Films
I thought what New York is using was a nice map, but I saw how cluttered and confusing it was compared to London’s when I visited the latter summer last year.
Comment from : MPY Films


Red_Light_
Never thought there'd be a time where I'd agree with NY ers...but yeah, I'm getting lost in London subways. It's already such a foreign concept to me, taking away the familiarity of the above ground neighborhoods just, defeats the purpose for me of actually getting somewhere. Distorting distance & stops from their geography makes my head spin~~
Comment from : Red_Light_


Elaine Burnett
Geographic map is best.
Comment from : Elaine Burnett


James McCrea
It just copied the basic format of London’s Tube map
Comment from : James McCrea


Javier Alvarez
Now than everyone has a map on their pocket and are used to read it, this obscure abstractions not make sense anymore.
Comment from : Javier Alvarez


Wietse ten Dam
The old new york map looks just like a mini metro game
Comment from : Wietse ten Dam


Huw
2:35 it's Harry not Henry Beck
Comment from : Huw


Mike the Spike
New Yorkers simply can't think in the abstract, that's all.
Comment from : Mike the Spike


Kai Gaming
My favorite Public transport map is the Munich one because it has ALL infos on it you have Busses, Trams,Subway,trains on one Map and its printed on real map
Comment from : Kai Gaming


brett knoss
The thing now, is that people have smart phones, so they should to able to access both the graph and the map, to see what information they need. Along with the knowledge to read both.
Comment from : brett knoss


That’s So Fetch!
London is my favourite
Comment from : That’s So Fetch!


OOO OOO
Now with smartphone and look at any map you want in minutes.
Comment from : OOO OOO


Frankie Cottrell
Can we just move to Loondon just seems easier than weigh all this map stuff
Comment from : Frankie Cottrell


Frankie Cottrell
Random New York people: It’s simple, clean, and aesthetically pleasing.”

Me: Laughs into London Underground map.

Comment from : Frankie Cottrell


Another Guy
3:35 wtf tokyo??!!
Comment from : Another Guy


Eddie Rodriguez
I remember when it first came out.
Comment from : Eddie Rodriguez


Arturs Dobrecovs
"Henry Beck"?? The 1933 London Underground diagram was designed by Harry Beck, not Henry
Comment from : Arturs Dobrecovs


Fabian Jäger
3:06 Vienna :)
Comment from : Fabian Jäger


MrMakeDo
What’s weird is that London is geographically a much more complicated city (no grid system or numbered streets) yet we’ve happily been using the Beck map since the 1930’s.
Comment from : MrMakeDo


WaterNai
A subway diagram with no relationship with the geography above is much less useful and even detrimental to anyone who isn’t a local. It is hard to plan your trip when you don’t know which stop is actually closest to your destination or which route is the most efficient and easiest to navigate in reality and not just on the map.
Comment from : WaterNai


Robert Lind
The map was shit, you had no idea where your stop really was
Comment from : Robert Lind


Drew Freeman
The Boston map is the best... but I looked at it everyday for twenty years.
Comment from : Drew Freeman


kiliipower
2:35
Henry Beck? Interesting!
Hamburg has exactly the same subway map. Very clear and well done.

Comment from : kiliipower


Tony Montana
It is only deficult or hard if you have an IQ of an American
Comment from : Tony Montana


Troy Van
To plot a route from station to station, look at the subway map. To get a sense of distance and geography, look at Google Maps with the transit layer turned on.
Comment from : Troy Van


Francis Power
I have to say that having recently become a resident of New York City and someone who culturally grew up with the iconic diagram of the London underground I find the New York map we use today truly horrible. Firstly you need a magnifying glass to read it and secondly there is so much unnecessary 'noise' going on that it is practically unreadable even with a magnifying glass. I would love to see a reissue of Vignelli's diagram, even if it were just an option on a transport app. Along perhaps with a similar diagram explaining the waterborne public transport options, which are excellent and I suspect in a lot of cases underused because people don't know about/how to use them. But actually what would help the less familiar and visitors to New York even more on the subway would be better signage on the platforms and on the trains to tell us what station we were arriving at. In some cases you practically have to be clairvoyant to know!
Comment from : Francis Power


Kevcaninez
3:32 Pause






Metro 2033 intensifies

Comment from : Kevcaninez


Pierre R.
Oh gosh what a stupid debate. Just use both systems. In Frankfurt Germany there are many Stations with severeal maps. Simplyfied versions for People who know where to go and just look for the best route. And detailed maps where the routes of even buslines are exactly on top of a map for people who have to search for a good destination station in the first place.
Comment from : Pierre R.


Artem Cobalt
using google maps for navigation would solve all the problems. it does show where to go, where to transfer to a different line and what station to leave at
Comment from : Artem Cobalt


robert moore
Needs to explain where you are and where you are going. Well where I am going is above ground. Having things distorted doesn't help. Only means I need a map to translate the transit map.
Comment from : robert moore


Daniel Garbutt
It was Paul Garbutt who took the initial Beck map and developed it into what is used today. The Thames was shifted by Garbutt and the less angular and more curved corners introduced. This was done to accommodate new lines also.
Comment from : Daniel Garbutt


Ina Fitable
cause americaaa! aka the people willing to let spacecraft crash to insist on worse measurement systems
Comment from : Ina Fitable


kevinthe hamster
That’s the map from the opening of “The Warriors”.
No above ground geography also doesn’t serve tourist too well.

Comment from : kevinthe hamster


Anna B
So New Yorkers are stupid they can't read a map
Comment from : Anna B


Le Plum
London underground was the first, original map of this design. All others are rip-offs, copies, p[ale shades.
Comment from : Le Plum


David Santos
I think maybe they should keep both. A map making it easy to understand a station and its surroundings, as well as showing real distances between stations, and a diagram making it easy to understand the relationship between stations, lines, points of transfer, etc. You could use the map to determine which station you need to go to considering your destination, and then you could use the diagram to learn how to navigate the subway system in order to get to that station.
Comment from : David Santos


nannite
"riders only need to know where they are and where they are going" what a silly assumption. this is why it belongs in a modern art museum and not in the subway. Pragmatism > aesthetics
Comment from : nannite


yun
Insert Tokyo metro map
Comment from : yun


TomoBata
Boomers kept getting anxious over the 45 degree angles
Comment from : TomoBata


Blade Vamp
It is a good map, but...without above grown being visible...how do you know where you are in relation to it? Without another map?
Comment from : Blade Vamp


hotelmario510
[laughs in Harry Beck]
Comment from : hotelmario510


TheSunkenCommander
Sydney uses similar
Comment from : TheSunkenCommander


John Moseley
Does it have anything to do with the fact that NYC street names are mostly just numbers – and subways stops are named after them? Here in London, we have tube stop names that are much more evocative of places: Piccadilly Circus, St. James' Park etc. You know pretty much exactly what you're going to get, so no need for geographical accuracy.
Comment from : John Moseley


A. Westenholz
Actually I think I'd like to have both types of map if not familiar with either NY or its subway system. The one that's more geographically accurate will allow me to choose the right stop and lines, while the other will make it easier to navigate the subway system itself. Sort of one each side of a folding card, perhaps?
Comment from : A. Westenholz


Uhohhotdog Gaming
Why not both?
Comment from : Uhohhotdog Gaming


David Burrow
It's not design, but practicality that matters for a transit map. For tourists especially, but also for locals, it's important to have at least some idea of how the train stations relate to streets and landmarks above ground. That is especially important in cities (like New York) where many different stations share the same name (e.g.: 23rd Street). People don't just look at subway maps when they're underground. They use them to plan trips to get to where they want to go, and having above ground context makes that planning much easier.
Comment from : David Burrow


WieAlex
Yahiii there was a short clip from Viennas Subway System! :D
Comment from : WieAlex


sunny sunshine
I dont really like vignellis map because i can see the different lines but not the stops
Like i cant read them
Because even tho it's like a diagram it's still cluttered af

Comment from : sunny sunshine


Scuba Diva
Vignelli's map made a cameo appearance in the 1979 film The Warriors when one guy is trying to read the map on a train and another dismisses it, saying, "Don't bother; nobody can read that anyway."
Comment from : Scuba Diva


Tele Opinions
With all the technology that's available today you can find what's above ground very easily, so in retrospect Vignelli was ahead of its time (in NYC). But, if at the time it didn't serve the community well, then it is not good. I think just a few tweaks to the original graphic will render it very functional today.
Comment from : Tele Opinions


Riverness Mariposa
A better question is why the MTA insists on using an intercom system inside the subway car that almost no one can understand or listen to properly.
Comment from : Riverness Mariposa


Archisman Kar
Everyone goes from one neighbourhood to another, and no one goes from a station to another station.... So geographically near or complete accurate maps are only logical choice...
Comment from : Archisman Kar


Priscilla Emerald
So in summary, New Yorkers are stupid.
Comment from : Priscilla Emerald


CHON ceo
For a laugh look at the Prague metro map :)
Comment from : CHON ceo


Christopher Mara
Growing up in NC in the 70's we hated that map. It lacked a sense of the city. When Nobuyoki Siraisi redesigned the map we instantly fell in love with it. It was a map of the subway and the city. Brillant.
Comment from : Christopher Mara


Andy E
Of course only New Yorkers would take a designer masterpiece and shit all over it in favor of an inferior design. Totally not surprised. Good thing most other modern cities like London and Tokyo have good design sense and have kept the more logical layout.
Comment from : Andy E


thepureheartofdark
I prefer Geographically accurate maps. Much easy to relation with other maps or for cities with more than just the subway.
Comment from : thepureheartofdark


SandboxArrow
Gay
Comment from : SandboxArrow


Blade1301
I use the map more as a "how to get from above-ground point a to point b, using the subway" vignelli's map is useless because I can't see where any station is in relation to where I'm actually trying to go.
Comment from : Blade1301


Nicholas Pipitone
The reason why new yorkers hated the distortion is very intuitive. Consider DC, which has an extremely distorted map that looks nothing like how it is above ground. This is okay, because it's an absolute fact that no matter where you are in DC, you can only realistically walk to a single stop. The rest are just unwalkably far away. And, when it comes to your destination, you need to stop at exactly one correct stop. If you get off at the wrong stop, you again need to take a taxi or get back in the subway because you're unwalkably far away. Also, the density is so low, that you're never okay just popping out of a random stop. If you come out of a random stop there's literally nothing to do so you have to just walk right back in. So distorting the map is fine, every single person who's using the subway is at some point A and needs to get to some point B, and no other option is acceptable. This experience has absolutely nothing to do with how riding the subway in NY feels. There are thousands of places to be that you get to know when living in the city, and when you jump in, you're totally fine going to any of them if you just want to chill. You can also safely stop basically anywhere and know you're only a subway away to anywhere else in the entire city, and where you stop has plenty of things to do, no matter where it is. The stops are so frequent that it's very easy to want to catch a train in Times Square, but which one you catch just doesn't matter. You'll accidentally stumble upon an MTA stop a dozen times while you walk up and down broadway. Just get in any of them. There is no Point A to Point B when riding a subway in NYC. It's region A to region B. Want to hang out in Tribeca? Sure let's take a ride. The geography is incredibly important, you need to be able to see exactly where in the city you're trying to go to. Taking out the regions is awful, again NYC commonly involves just riding to a region. How do you ride to tribeca if that region is completely unlabelled and nothing is geographically accurate? It just doesn't work. And, if you know you're trying to get to a specific location in say midtown, well then being able to see the streets and avenues is absolutely critical to being able to make a decision as to what stop to get off at. In DC or other cities, there's absolutely no decision making when it comes to what stop to get off at. You have to know before you even get on. In DC, you say "Okay come to Union Station". In NY, you say "Meet me at battery park", or "Meet me on 4th and 42nd". You need to look at the map to know how to get to battery park or a specific street/avenue, so it absolutely needs to be on the map. Union Station is the name of a station, you have no choice, just go there. Above ground doesn't matter in these other cities. But Never in NY does someone explain to you exactly which train to take and what stop to get off. It just doesn't really happen, you make that decision after looking at the map. It's more than a subway map. It's a real map combined with a subway map, you need both.
Comment from : Nicholas Pipitone


I Created An Account For This
I like maps and diagrams.
Comment from : I Created An Account For This


kayakchrispy
Demi Moore’s cousin? Sister?
Comment from : kayakchrispy


Eric Carabetta
Thank you. I fucking hate the NY subway map, it’s horrible. Other cities are so much easier to read, New Yorkers are just stupid.
Comment from : Eric Carabetta


Huy Ly
Once a map becomes as complicated as Tokyo's but it is real hard for people not used to it to figure out where to go.

It's especially bad in Tokyo because to buy tickets at some stations you have to: look at the map above the ticket machines, find what station you're at, find your destination station and see what "payment zone" it's located in, then punch in the cost of the ticket. Sometimes the station names are in Japanese those were the times I was glad I did 3 years of Japanese in highschool and can read basic Japanese.

All this is why I only did it once then just bought an iC card to tap and go. Also I learnt Google maps is an absolute lifesaver.

Comment from : Huy Ly


saberur66
NYC is built in a grid like system making it easier to have numerous subway stations underground which makes it easier for one line to give you large excess to the city. in nyc there is over 470ish stops, in london there are 240ish, even in japan there are only 240 stops. this makes it easier to allign different stops with above ground geography as there are more stations in relation to final destinations
Comment from : saberur66


Edo
When a game with a hardcore fanbase gets "streamlined".
Comment from : Edo


Rhys Holden
So new Yorkers hated that map because it's too simple? Go look at the perth western Australia train station map, it is EXTREMELY simple and EXTREMELY easy to use, its amazing
Comment from : Rhys Holden


Fizzbear
New Yorkers are just dumber than non New Yorkers..
Comment from : Fizzbear


Alexander Wood
It might look pretty, but it's a horribly dysfunctional mess. It's got so many colors and routes that it's impossible to use.
Comment from : Alexander Wood


Jakub Korba
In my city there are just straight lines that cross on the places where transit lines have the same stop on the “map”
Comment from : Jakub Korba


Captain Goo
I can’t believe that they wanted a worse subway
Comment from : Captain Goo


ZeldaFreak
Both Map Types have their use and you should give out both maps. A simple Map is useful when you just need to know where trains go and how you can plan your route. What can get lost on those maps is how far apart 2 stations might be and if it's faster to just walk or take the train. A map that is realistic can help to navigate on foot and help to plan the way. When you have a specific location where you want to be, you can take the realistic map, look what stations are nearby and whats on the way. Maybe it's better to take a station that is a bit further away but you have a fast food chain on your way. When you now your station, a simple map is then better to use.
Comment from : ZeldaFreak


Hannah Miyamoto
Los Angeles uses a diagrammatic map for its Rail, BRT and even commuter rail systems. However, detailed local maps of the local area are posted in each station, and they are used. Plus we have Google Maps now. The bus map, on the other hand, is a diagram, but also confusingly complex. It is posted in every subway station, so there is reading material while you wait for your train.
Comment from : Hannah Miyamoto


Kristýna Míšková
In prague you have map of the stations so simple
Comment from : Kristýna Míšková


Darkside
Americans too dumb to understand abstraction lmao
Comment from : Darkside


DannyDaDuffyDucking Daffer
Geographically accurate
Comment from : DannyDaDuffyDucking Daffer


DannyDaDuffyDucking Daffer
That map is fucking dumb
Comment from : DannyDaDuffyDucking Daffer


Simon Eminger
3:06 the Viennese map is pretty great
Comment from : Simon Eminger


Ryan Grissom
I am going to take the third option and say I don't like either map.
Comment from : Ryan Grissom


Richard Sleeve
I prefer realistic maps. To me, the logic of, you don't need to know what's above ground, makes no sense. You're going to a destination above ground. That's why you're traveling. But I've worked extensively with maps most of my life, so simplified diagrams only serve to paralyze my ability to navigate.
Comment from : Richard Sleeve


Alicia Banister
As someone who hasn’t taken any form of public transportation since taking the school bus in middle school, I have no doubt in my mind I would get completely lost trying to take the subway
Comment from : Alicia Banister


TheAres1999
If a map doesn't tell you how to get where you are going, then it isn't a good map.
Comment from : TheAres1999


jay capp
New York City has the largest Subway System in the world, with 469 Subway Stations. No other City in the world comes close to the size of the NYC Subway System.This is why it has to have the more precise subway map.
Comment from : jay capp


Ansh
Even though I have never been to New York, I find subway maps using a real map much more useful and easy to understand rather than diagram for the whole system. For individual lines a diagram is fine.
Comment from : Ansh


Nicolas Gargano
That map is horrible, no wonder why it got changed! The map we have now is so much better and realistic.
Comment from : Nicolas Gargano


robertson Patrickson
I'm from Ohio, but a geographic map makes more sense,
Comment from : robertson Patrickson


Vagabond Wastrel
Doesn't shock me. They insist on electing the lesser political party and have a distorted opinion on the nyc pizza.
Comment from : Vagabond Wastrel


hotelmario510
meanwhile london has been using harry beck's redesigned map since the 1930s and it's as iconic now as ever
Comment from : hotelmario510



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